The Ripple Effect: How One Story Can Change Everything

Marc Wolfe: Hello, Pamela Holz. Welcome to the podcast. 


So I want to make sure our guests know right away who you are. So can you tell us quickly one thing or two things about your professional career that would be relevant to them hearing about you.

Pamela Holz: I was reading this great new book that I have. It’s called Yeah, But, and it was talking about how people change careers often in their lives. And I think, um, that is something that I’ve learned is not a negative. I have had the opportunity to do a, a variety of different things along my, my professional journey. And it’s been really neat to be able to see along the way how each one of those things has prepared me for the next one. And, um, I think that is an important thing to know about a person’s life and profession.

Marc Wolfe: That you’re not afraid of change, you’re willing to dive in and be able to do things. So how does that play out in your life outside of work? What’s something you’re proud of? What brings you joy?

Pamela Holz: Oh my goodness. That’s my word, Marc. You know, this, uh, what brings me joy? I, I live in always seeking positivity and optimism. I want to find, life for me is all about perspective. Um, I, I think, you know, I like to take pictures of photography is a little hobby of mine and my kids laugh because I’m so hip, but I’ve got my own little hashtag and it’s, it’s all about perspective. Because it’s not just about taking pictures, but when you take a picture, the picture that you capture is unique to you, kind of like life. Each one of us are these unique creatures who have the opportunity to make our way in this world. And we, have the opportunity to choose our perspective. So what brings me joy is remembering that there is this perspective that I can choose every day. um, I follow Seth Godin, who’s got a great, um, great blog and, and I’ve been following him for years. And one of the first things I wrote down that he said was, you want to be in the room where decisions are made, be the one to call the meeting. And that was an aha moment for me. I really appreciated that.

Oh, I’ll just call the meetings and then I’ll be there. Um, but another thing yesterday he sent out in his blog and it was called polishing the problem. And it was where people have a tendency to get into this negative spiral and they keep looking at a problem and they keep looking at a problem and they build on it.

They’re polishing the problem. And so his encouragement was instead of polishing the problem pursue possibilities. And I love that.

Marc Wolfe: Plus the alliteration is cool too, right?

Pamela Holz: Pursuing the possibilities because, because Pamela’s positive perspectives are what I’m all about.

Marc Wolfe: Okay, so so imagine people meeting you for the first time on this podcast and they’re like, okay, is this Pamela woman real? Show how you can be relatable from this, so there they want to continue to listen

Pamela Holz: How am I real? Oh, wow. Um, you know, I have had things happen to me in my life. I’ve, I’ve not lived in the same place for very long. I mean, this is the longest I’ve, I’ve lived in Tennessee for 17 years now, and that is the longest I’ve lived anywhere in my life. Um, so over, you know, the course of my life, we’ve, um, we moved a lot. I had to, you know, make friends and then get uprooted and have to go someplace else and make new friends and learn a whole new environment and, and figure out how to fit into a new social system and peer group. And, and how do you make those connections? And while, you know, some people might look at that and go, oh, that’s too bad that you had to do that. For me, it’s been, it’s been instrumental in helping me grow and doing what I love to do, and that is make connections. I love networking. I, Eleanor Roosevelt is quoted, or is credited with saying, everyone’s a stranger until they become your friend. And that’s, that’s true. But a quote that I’ve known since I was a little girl, I grew up in a little town in Southern Minnesota with 14, 000 people.

And I think more people knew me than I realized, but I was that little girl who’s just like, good morning, hello, because I think that everyone’s a stranger until they become your friend. But what if everybody in the world were just to take a moment and smile at a stranger on the street? Not, not in a creepy way, but just, you know, you walk past somebody in the street and say, good morning. And that’s it. But wow, for just that. That millisecond we could, I mean, I made a guy smile this morning when I walked past him and he had this kind of fierce look on his face. And I looked at him, I smiled and I said, good morning. He’s like, Oh, hi. Yeah. Good morning. And he smiled back at me and we both kept walking and I’ll never see him again. Does that make me real? I don’t know if that makes me real, Marc, but it is who I really am. So I guess that’s as real as I can be is to be me.

Marc Wolfe: And that’s the beauty of what I’m trying to show with Yeah, But, there’s things that people say and do. And it’s important to understand is that the authentic you. So with your positivity and again, I know a lot of my guests because I want to make sure I know them at least well enough to be like, should I put them in front of an audience?

What are they going to say? Are they going to be the real them. You still have “yeah, buts” though, Pamela. So here’s this ray of sunshine, really hopeful, everything going on, but,

Yeah, But… Somebody Already Did It

Marc Wolfe: I heard that your first “yeah, but” is “Yeah, but somebody already did it”. So tell me a little bit about that.

Pamela Holz: You know, I, I have to first do a little, uh, segue commercial. I have, I have just really been enjoying this book, Marc. I’m not all the way through it yet, and I want to be honest about that. But the thing I love about your book is that you have collected a bunch of, like, very human excuses that people maybe don’t even realize that they have.

And you put it together in this handy collection of, like, oh, if I’m struggling with that but there’s already an excuse that’s been written. Marc has the answer. I love how each chapter is super readable and you’ve got like, hey, oh yeah, I can, I can think through that. So “yeah, but” somebody’s already done that.

You know, you and I talked about that, um, a couple months ago and, and I think when you and I first met, I think I told you that at some point I’d love to write a book. There’s always been a book inside of me. “Yeah, but” somebody’s already done that, right? So somebody’s already written a book. And I remember you and I had a conversation and you said, but Pamela, there is no other you. There’s never been the book written by you from your perspective. So has somebody already written a book? Yep. They sure have. There have been many, many, many books written, but have they been from my perspective? Nope. And might there be somebody out there who wants to hear my perspective? There might be.

And you know what? Even if there isn’t another single person in this world who would like to read a book that I write, I will have accomplished a childhood dream to become a published author. And that’ll be something.

Marc Wolfe: No, it’s, you know, you, you bring up a point that, and by the way, thank you so much for taking the time to read it. And I wrote it in a way because I wanted it to be like, people look and go 202 pages? “Yeah, but” I don’t have the time for that. I was like, oh, there’s a chapter on that. Just read the intro in that chapter. Seriously. That’s it.

Pamela Holz: 1440.

Marc Wolfe: Exactly, right?

Pamela Holz: 1440 minutes.

Marc Wolfe: And so, I did it in a way where I appreciate that you do that because, Pamela, even with your book, you’re like, I don’t know who’s going to read this. I mean, you know, I got some relatives that like me and they might read it, but I was like, are strangers really going to do that?

And then you hear people that, you know, never met and they’re like, wow, this book was really important to me. And that’s the thing. It’s not about being an author. I’m always gonna be a guy who wrote a book, right? Authors are people who write books and that’s what they do. It’s okay. I don’t want to take that title as author.

It’s, and maybe someday I’ll move into it. But when I think about what you’re saying, you know, there’s a chapter even on, you know, somebody already did This is nothing new, but let’s, let’s go back for a second. I want to make sure people really understand that you’re not just a cheerleader and you’re just full of joy, but you have this whole career.

Give me a little of your background. If now’s a good time to just tell me professionally, why would they even listen to you other than you just being somebody that lives in Tennessee for 17 years?

Pamela Holz: Yeah. Um, why to listen to me? Um, that’s a great question, Marc. A great question, Marc. I love words. Words so much fun. Um, so I have been working since I was 10 years old. I think that was just drilled into me that there’s this entrepreneurial spirit that we, you know, you need to, you need to be doing something you’ve been given gifts, use those gifts and, and do something with them. I was a, I had a paper route when I was 10 and I would trudge through the snowdrifts of Minnesota to deliver 32 papers every morning, you know, from six to seven in the morning. And, um, and I got to go collect the monthly fees for that. So I got to meet people. Um, I had a professor, the neighborhood, give me a quarter and say, save this for your college education.

And I said to him very politely, thank you, sir. Um, I think I understand that college is a little bit more expensive than that. So I’m probably going to have to get some more customers and get them to give me a bigger tip, um, cause he gave me a quarter a month. Um, you know, I mean, but, you know, every experience that I’ve had, I mean, I worked in fast food, I worked in retail, I sold shoes, I sold women’s clothing, I was a nanny for a couple of years out in New York State. I got to travel. I’ve gotten to do some really neat things. And I think part of it is because I genuinely just love people. I think there is something to love about every single person that we meet in this world, but we just need to give them the opportunity for us to see it. And sometimes they make it a little bit more difficult.

And those are the people I love talking with the most because it’s like a challenge, but I, um, I had some fabulous teachers when I was going to school. I wanted to become a school teacher. That’s what I trained to do was become a teacher. And um, just that privilege of getting to spend time and, and be in a classroom with kids realize that there’s just these little sponges and, oh man, there’s so much we could learn.

They used to tell me you’re talking too fast. We can’t take this all in. I’m like, nope, we can’t slow down. There’s so much to learn in so little time. We got to keep going. I have always been this way, Marc. But you know, my first teaching job, the way it worked, I was actually assigned to a school.

Um, it was the way, um, the school system that I was in worked. They looked at your gifts and they assigned you to a school. So I was assigned to a one room school and this is up in St. Cloud, Minnesota. I was uh, fresh out of college. I was told that I was going to be the principal and the teacher in the school.

I would have a halftime teacher there. She would take the kindergartners and first and second graders in the morning, but then in the afternoon I would have grades one through eight and every grade was represented. I had 32 students in my school. Not only was I their teacher, I was also the principal, I was brand new out of college.

I had the school photographer show up and he said, where’s your teacher? And I said, I am the teacher. And he said, stop goofing around, go get the teacher.

Marc Wolfe: So, so, so this, this life of yours is not new where you’re loving people and helping people and educating people. And Pamela, so as, as you start to go through kind of what you’re doing, right, and you’re shifting, how does this tie into where you land professionally now?

Hi, I’m Marc A. Wolfe, author of the best selling book, Yeah, But…Cut Through the Noise to Live, Learn, and Lead Better. Fifteen different chapters about “yeah, buts” that I’ve heard over my professional career. Things like, “Yeah, but I don’t have time”. “Yeah, but what’s the plan?” “Yeah, but what if I fail?” These “yeah, buts” aren’t about preaching at someone about how they’re wrong.

It provides insight and research as well as “but busters” to help you get through them. Pick up a copy of Yeah, But…Cut Through the Noise today.

Pamela Holz: Um, it’s been an interesting journey. You know, I, I taught school and then I stayed home and I raised my kids. And how do you get back into the workplace after being out for 12 years, raising, raising four kids? You know, how, what does that look like? And it just didn’t work for me to go back into the classroom.

And I felt like there was more for me to do. And so I’ve, I’ve gone on different paths and, you know, things just, things just seem to opportunities present themselves and I kind of, I, I think you can’t be afraid to take a chance on an opportunity. I went to a, I went to a show at the Ryman ended up being a guest chef on a cooking show.

It was called Sing for Your Supper with chef Bob Waggoner and Brett Eldridge was the guest performer that night. At the time, Brett Eldridge was not an, he was not a known quantity. He was opening up for this gal named Taylor Swift. But now Brett Eldredge is his own guy, but I got to cook for Brett Eldredge.

Well, my neighbors saw that episode and she said, hey, I’ve got this cooking show. I need a host. Would you be interested in hosting a cooking show? I said, well, yeah, I would love to do that. So I got to host a cooking show. Well, she also needed a creative director for her, for her, um, health food market, so I ended up being a creative director for a health food market and had a cooking show. And then that ran its course, and I ended up getting to work for the USO out at Fort Campbell, and I got to work with our service members and their families, and I got to take care of them. This is how this all ties together, right? Because what it comes down to is at the health food store. I taught cooking classes. I wanted to take away from people the fear of switching to healthy food that it didn’t have to be a bad thing that going on a diet isn’t, you know, a negative thing. It’s just about what you put in your body and how to make better choices so that you could take the best care of yourself. How can I help to take care of people?

What can I do? That’s how I show love, is how can I take care of you? I got to help take care of our service members and their families. What an incredibly big honor that was that was that was huge for me to be able to serve in that capacity to show each one of them that they matter and that we appreciate them huge. And then I had the opportunity to go from that to to work with the Red Cross and respond to people on what is probably one of the worst days of their lives and show love to them and, and to be there for them and to give them hope, you know, it’s the not being afraid to make a change, even though sometimes change can be hard to accept that change is really the only constant.

And the sooner we accept that and recognize that there are opportunities for us to learn and grow in everything that we do, we take the right perspective about it, then. You know, I ended up where I am today because of a conversation that a friend had with a mutual friend who said, that sounds like a job for Pamela.

Pamela called this woman. I did. We had four conversations and then I had this job and now I’m here helping people grow their businesses through networking opportunities across the state of Tennessee.

Marc Wolfe: Wow, and yet you still sleep at some time with your energy and, and, but the, the part that I think is, is amazing is, uh, “yeah, but I don’t have time” and I could see why that might be a “yeah, but” for you after all that.

Yeah, But… I Don’t Have Time

Marc Wolfe: So share a story about your, “yeah, but I don’t have time”. Just one story. I know there’s a lot.

Pamela Holz: No. This just happened this week, Marc.

Marc Wolfe: Oh, okay.

Pamela Holz: I’m going to give you a lot of credit. You know, I appreciate, I was thinking this morning about just how much I appreciate your persistence. I know you’re a professional coach. I mean, like executive coach, I know this is what you do, but your persistence and your belief in me, um, has been something that I have just really appreciated over the years since we’ve met.

Um, uh, it’s it’s been, um, a really positive, um, experience for me to have you just continue to encourage me to do this. And I kept saying, but “yeah, but” somebody already wrote that book and “yeah, but” I don’t have time to do that. And I was reading the chapter about, I don’t have time. And he said, 1440 and that’s how many minutes are in a day.

And I have a little clock on my desk and it’s tick, tick, ticking away. And I’m like, man, I’m running out of time in the morning to work on this book. I have this book project that I’ve started because of you, Marc. I have this book that I’m working on and it dawned on me, I’m not, I don’t have enough time to work on this before I have to go to work in the morning.

So the only way I’m going to make more time is I’m going to get up at five o’clock in the morning instead of five 30. And so now I have two hours in the morning to work on my book project before I go to work. So how do I make more time? I sleep less. How do I work through that? Well, I go to bed a little earlier and I drink a lot of coffee.

Marc Wolfe: Well, congratulations. That’s it’s, it’s the, here’s the irony and all that, Pamela. And, and thank you. I’m honored that that was a helpful method for you. And yes, I’m tenacious because when I see something or I see something at somebody until they tell me to go away, if I really see it, I’m like, you just need to see it.

And if you see it now it’s on you, but I want you to know other people see it. And I wasn’t the only person so there’s four people you’re the fourth person that’s actually either written a book or going to write a book way before I decided to right so you decide to write a book a long time ago, and i’ve been resisting it. It’s interesting how you can help people do something you don’t even do and that’s sometimes what people short sell themselves on. Well, if I can’t do it, how can I encourage others? I was like sometimes they just need the reflection of this needs to be done. I’m just not there yet. And, uh, yeah, I’m excited about your book because I do know, do you want to offer a teaser of what it’s about? Or do you want to keep that secret? Yeah, that’s okay.

Pamela Holz: Well. If people want to find a better way to focus their lives, that’s what I was struggling with, and I was talking to a friend about it, and, um, he’s taken the approach lately that if there’s something that he struggles with, he leans into it. And I think, oh yeah, which is really hand in hand with Yeah, But you know, lean into that, which you’re resisting. Adam Grant has a new book out called Hidden Potential. And his phrases, um, getting comfortable with being uncomfortable. So if I struggle with focus, because honestly, Marc, as fast as I talk and as much as I have going on, you know, in the conversation, there’s, you know, 10 times as much going on in my brain.

Like, how do I focus when I’ve got all these different things going on? But. If I need to get better at focusing, I need to lean into focusing. And so I am creating a system, a framework to better focus. And for me, focus is to find one’s creative usable system. Somebody else can have a planner. But it might not work for me because it works for their brain. But what if there’s just a framework that you could plug in what works for you into this framework? So I’m creating a framework that when I show you how it works, you can take the things that are important to you and plug them into this framework, and you can focus on those things for a whole year. then it’s great because it’ll be set up in such a way that next year, you can choose other things you want to focus on, and then I’ll show you how you can focus on those for an entire year. And instead of having a New Year’s resolution, like, oh, I’m going to do this, and I’m going to focus, and then, you know, two weeks in, you don’t keep up your resolution, you feel like a failure, and then you move on, and I hate New Year’s resolutions. No, I’m actually breaking it down into bite sized pieces so that you can focus on the things that are important to you. And it’s going to make a difference in your life.

Marc Wolfe: Impact, actual and making it customizable. And so that’s the beauty of what I get so excited about as people who see an issue, see that might not just be theirs or see that it’s not addressed in a way where they’re like, if this was just tweaked, you know, this could help a whole group of people that don’t like the standard way it’s being done.

And that’s always, what’s so exciting, but there’s somebody, “yeah, but” well, the market not big enough, or how about if it doesn’t take off? So, so it’s, even with that idea about what to do,

Yeah, But… I Don’t Know What to Do Next

Marc Wolfe: I thought your third, “yeah, but” was I don’t know what to do next. So.

Pamela Holz: Yeah, you know, but and it’s true.

Um, I but I think I had lunch with a friend earlier this week and I was talking to her about my project. Cause she’s somebody else that I, she’s my accountability partner. I consider you one of my accountability, accountability people. She is too. And she said, um, cause she recently wrote a book as well. And she said, as I was going through the process, the people that I needed kept appearing in my life. And I, so my yeah, but is okay. Yeah. So I put this together. How do I get it published to, to whom do I speak to make this happen? How do I put this into reality? Right. But her comment was, well, you know, I, that’s. you need a publisher, she said, I’ve got a couple of different people I could recommend. And I’ve mentioned it to a couple of somebody else I spoke with that just recently written a book. And she’s like, Oh, I have my own publishing company. If you want to talk to me, I’d be happy to talk with you. So suddenly the answers are, you know, if you’re just open to asking for help, I think that’s one of your, “yeah, but” things too is like, “yeah, but” I need to ask for help. And so to people who’ve done this and say, so next steps, what would you recommend? “Yeah, but” what do I do next? Okay. Marc’s got an answer for that too. I don’t, you’re like, getting rid of all my “yeah buts”, Marc. I don’t know. I don’t have any more excuses because you’ve got me looking at things in a way that I don’t need that much sleep. I can cut a half an hour off my, off my sleep so I can get more done. That’s exciting to me. So now what?

Marc Wolfe: They’re “But Busters”, that’s what we call them right so I mean you’re busting your own “but” and isn’t it isn’t it exciting when somebody can speak into your life, but you can still decide it’s still my choice to do it or not. My book doesn’t preach at people and say you gotta do it because I don’t guilt anybody into things.

Because I don’t want that to be what it should be. Don’t tell me what I should do. Thing is, I want to want to do it. And look at you with all the energy and your positive attitude and things. We still have things we struggle with because we all do. And there’s always a time where like, you’re going to get stuck, even on something someone says or said in the past, or even our own self talk, imposter syndrome.

And when you think about all these things, it’s really important to be like, okay, well, which ones of these are going to matter? Which ones of these are going to hold me back? And what happens if I don’t do this? So Pamela, let’s, let’s talk about that for a minute. It’s like, What happens with some of the things that you’re now convicted of?

What helped you change and realize that if you didn’t do it, what would happen if you didn’t?

Pamela Holz: Well, that conversation you and I had, I mean, you said that to me, we were standing, you know, we were at the 501 commerce building on the 11th floor event space and the harvest moon was coming up in the sky and we’re standing outside and you’re like, “yeah, but” Pamela, if you don’t write that book, people won’t get to know about this. And, and that wasn’t guilt. It was just a reality. It was a true statement. It’s the, what, see, my, my thing is in a world where people seem just bent on being offended by things. What if, what if we switch our perspective? What if, instead of being offended by something, someone says, what if I stop? What if I. defend somebody? What if I, what if I speak well of them? What if I look to take their words and their actions in just the kindest possible way? What if I look to find everything that you and I have in common and celebrate those things? Marc, can you imagine what a difference it would make in the world if everyone would make a difference? Just the effort to try to say, I want to find what you and I have in common, because I bet if you and I were to sit down across the table with a complete stranger, and I’d be happy to do this with anyone, I could find more things that that person and I had in common than anybody could find that we had that would separate us and man, would the world be a better place if we all just took a little time to get out of our, oh, I’m offended role and say, no, I’m going to look for ways that I can, I can put some positivity back in the world. I want to stop being offended. I don’t want to start looking for ways that I can build other people up. I want to celebrate other people’s successes. I want to be there and smiling at the stranger on the street and saying good morning to people. I don’t know you, that’s okay. But what if I smile at you and it makes a difference in your day? They say that if a person is contemplating suicide, if they were to get a call from a friend within 30 minutes of when they might commit suicide, that 30 minutes make all the difference in the world. It can stop them from what they were thinking about doing. How many people in this world are struggling? And what if we all could just take a moment to say, who do I know that maybe, maybe I just want to send a text message and say, I was thinking about you. I have a friend who doesn’t go through drive thrus. He never goes to the drive thru. He always wants to go into the restaurant.

He makes the time in his very, very busy life, in his busy schedule. He stops, and he’ll go inside the restaurant. And he does it because he wants to look the person in the eye and have a connection as another human being. I love that. I respect that. I try to emulate that. Let’s do a better job of connecting as people. That’s, that, that matters to me. That’s why this book needs to be written. That’s why what I do, I feel is such a privilege that I get to connect people and help to grow relationships with people.

Marc Wolfe: No, that’s, that’s profound. And I think I’ll scale what you said because you’re at the higher level of the scale because you’ve lived it. I mean, you were a little girl. You did this. Here’s the way I help people who aren’t. A lifelong person is just to understand how one thought can manifest itself to create a “yeah, but” that stopped you from doing something, right?

Anyone doing something just because of a one “yeah, but” can be enough. And look at how reading a book, having conversations, look at how much it takes to unravel that, right? I’m a coach. I’m a consultant. Not a psychiatrist, not a psychologist. This is from a business perspective, and it still takes work to undo that.

What I’m hearing you say, Pamela, is that sometimes there’s not enough joy in people’s lives that even a smile can take a stranger and actually turn them into, wow, you just broke me out of this moment where I’m in my own head because I had to interact with you. If I go to a restaurant and have a conversation with somebody, they don’t even know that you’re doing it intentionally, but imagine if you did say, you know why, you know why I came in here?

I just wanted to say hello, right? And they’re like, they would just be taken aback. When you interrupt somebody from what is normal, normal and commonplace, and you actually show them your intentionality, there’s so much that can happen. So I think for people that aren’t on the scale of Pamela with the overwhelming, overflowing joy, which I get to experience at networking events and other events.

And I think people can start with just doing one thing differently that they normally do and just take a moment to be like, what happens if I actually have a smiling face every once in a while. to strangers versus, I mean, you drive, drive, drive to Vermont and they wave to you while you drive on the road.

I mean, there’s certain places that still do this, right? I’ve been to Bermuda, and if you don’t say hello, I’ve been to places in the South where they expect you to say hello when you walk by to people. And it’s still, it’s not the 1950s anymore. It’s still doing that. So It’s interesting how some people still are doing this, it’s just not as many, and it takes more intentionality to do that.

So, Pamela, thank you for sharing so many different ways that people can know that there’s somebody else out there that does this. This is great, and they can relate to you. Even though you have a “Yeah, but somebody already did it”, I don’t have time, and I don’t know what to do next. It didn’t stop you, and it still hasn’t stopped you.

Pamela Holz: Well, know, I, I think you’re not a lifelong learner, you know, that, I mean, that’s just my, my goal in life. Let’s how, what can I learn today? What, what can I learn next? We’re not, we’re not stagnant creatures. We’re, you know, we’re full of energy and we’re, I mean, we really are. We’re made of cells and those cells, I mean, like think back to your science classes, you know, I mean, those, that’s energy and we have the choice that we can be full of positive energy or we can be full of negative energy and you, you attract, you know, what, what do you want to attract? Really, really interesting, but I, let, I mean, let’s just, let’s just, it’s worth to do, to do something, just do something.

Marc Wolfe: So, thanks so much. I want to make sure, is there anything else that I didn’t ask you or you want to leave people with that they should know about how to think differently, reach out to you, have a conversation, see things differently? I mean, we went over so much. What’s one of the big takeaways you want people to come away with and kind of see?

Pamela Holz: You know, I would say, just remember something I didn’t know until probably later in life, not, not that many years ago um, everybody’s got their own insecurities. Everybody’s got the things that they’re struggling with and, and just, if we can all just work to be a little bit kinder and, and recognize that, you know, when, when we have networking events and somebody walks in a room. Um, and I don’t know anybody, you know, it’s okay just to go up to somebody and say, hi, I don’t think we’ve met, introduce yourselves. I’m, I’m with this. What do you do? One of the secrets that people maybe don’t believe about me, but I tell them it’s actually true is that, um, I love finding out about other people and I love asking questions. And you know what a person’s favorite topic is to talk about themselves. So if you are struggling in a conversation, ask them about themselves, ask them about their favorite food. I once thought that maybe I could go on a journey around the world meet people just over food. You know, even if I didn’t speak the same language, facial expressions can be like, Oh, wow, this is amazing.

Or, Oh, I’m not sure I care for this, but okay. And, and you can get people to break bread with you and talk with you and connect with you. And, and, and I guess that would be my big encouragement. Who can you connect with? Maybe it’s that grouchy person at the, at the, you know, the grocery store who never smiles at you when they check out with groceries. Maybe ask them something about themselves. You know, what can you do to make a difference in somebody’s life? And don’t be offended if they are grouchy to you, you know, look at, is it a challenge? Oh, okay. They’re grouchy today. All right. I’ll try again tomorrow. Because if, if we don’t give up, You know, I mean, eventually, I will tell you, I, I’ve had that happen. He finally gave in and he’s just like, why are you always so cheerful? I’m like, I just wanted to make you smile.

Marc Wolfe: You know, that’s a perfect place to end this episode, Pamela. I’m going to have in the show notes where people can reach out and connect with you. And your tenacity, your authenticity, I think is infectious in a good way where people can realize that you’re just not going to give up. And I think I know that if more people were like that, it would just be unavoidable and instead of it being unavoidable, that people are going to dive toward mean or angry or disconnected.

What happens if just even one or two out of 10 people were actually more joyful. So thank you so much for taking the time and sharing your “yeah, buts” and being here.

Pamela Holz: Well, I really appreciate it, Marc. Thank you.

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