The Link Between Corporate Boards, The Ironman, and Fear of Failure

Transcript

Marc A. Wolfe: Hello, Naomi Kent. Thank you for joining The Yeah But Podcast. 

Naomi Kent: Hi, Marc. Thank you for having me.

Marc A. Wolfe: Let’s jump right in. So, Naomi, tell me three things people need to know about you. 

Naomi Kent: Something that I’m very passionate about that may not be as obvious online is I’ve done a lot of long distance training sports.

So I’ve done a lot of Ironman. I’ve done a lot of long distance swimming. And I, I love doing this, this type of exercise because I think it, it creates a lot of discipline. And it’s, there’s a lot of training. The actual race itself is probably the shortest thing that you’re going to do. So you spend, you spend nine months training for 12 hours, um, of, of work, but, but the discipline there is really important to me and I enjoy that. 

Naomi Kent: Another thing I talk a lot about is having a winning mentality. And I feel like doing hobbies and having sports and things that you do on a regular basis just create just a little bit of a winning feeling every day. So it could be hey, I woke up at 5:30 am and I, I swam for 40 minutes, right? Um, you sort of feel like you’ve accomplished something and that winning mentality for me is really, really important, even if it’s just something really small.

Um, so I, I believe in that and I feel like that’s what drives me every day. And then also something that might not be so obvious is I was born in Jakarta, Indonesia. So I lived until I was about eight years old in Asia. And so it was a very unusual upbringing in a very unusual childhood, but that I really embraced. I was in a classroom with kids from all over the world, and it was a phenomenal start, you know, to my life. And I sort of crave that, too. I crave a lot of diversity and the groups and the people that I work with and with the work that I do as well.

Marc A. Wolfe: That’s great. So I want to dive deeper into one of your statements. Tell me about one of these endurance, one of these long races. Tell me a quick story about something you did. Even you thought, Oh my gosh, what did I get myself into?

Naomi Kent: Yeah, I’ll tell you about a relay event that I did in Catalina Island swim, it takes about I don’t know, for one person, probably about 24 to 36 hours to swim. I did not do that, I did it in a relay. So you have about five or six people on a boat and then you take it in turns to swim for one hour. Um, and you swim, the boat goes all the way to Catalina Island and all the way back. So you really never had a chance to sleep because you were sort of eating and resting and then you slept for a couple of hours and then you had to get back in the water and swimming at night was something I did not expect to be as spooky as it was.

And interestingly, when you get to, I mean, you’re very exhausted and you’re tired and perhaps your nutrition isn’t doing as well as it should be. And you’re swimming in the dark and there’s plankton that kind of light up. The mind plays tricks on you. And so, uh, you sort of see, I was seeing eyes popping out of the water , almost like in those cartoons, right? When it’s at, it’s at night and you can see those eyes. 

And so, you really test yourself at one point, you know, do I want to give up right now? Right. Is this, is this too much for me? I swam twice at night. Uh, so one late in the evening and then one very early in the morning. So it’s a team effort in this particular case, we’re all under the same pressures. We’re all under the same circumstances.

I think also when you’re racing alone, it’s easier for you to sort of duck out, right, and sort of cheat on yourself and say well I’m, just gonna slow down here and maybe walk the rest of the marathon, right? But when you have people around you who rely on you, right, to do your part, because the faster you swim, the quicker we get to the other end. So I think that was definitely a driver. And I think if you can apply that into your career, it’s all about being a team player. 

And sports to me are absolutely essential. Um, I encourage people. I don’t have any children myself, but I encourage my friends to get their kids into sports because this team environment and working in a team really drives you and really holds you accountable and pushes you to an extent. Right? And so same thing in the workplace. I feel like when you have, whether you’re in a team that works exclusively alone or you work with other groups. Um, I think this kind of mentality comes into play as well.

Marc A. Wolfe: Great insight. And I love how you don’t just say it, but you live it out because it’s easy to say, Hey, you should do this. Have you ever done it? No, no, but you should. 

Marc A. Wolfe: So Naomi, Naomi Kent’s 20 year career is defined by her ability to build successful brands. She’s worked as a C-Suite partner and strategic advisor. She’s helped promote boards and help them with their culture and how they work with talent. And you’re a managing director at FelixCorp. And you provide executive career guidance.

You chair multiple organizations and help them with that. Plus you’re involved with the British American business council in Chicago. So that’s also something that is big here in Nashville. And you also help people with speaking and speaking development board service. 

So I have one more question about you. What do you wish people knew as soon as they met you that would help change the way they interact with you?

Naomi Kent: I think I probably have a high threshold for fear and risk. So, um, at a very young age, I started scuba diving. At the time I sort of felt like it was just a bit of fun and didn’t really know the dangers around it. I wasn’t, I wasn’t, so aware of it at the time.

But as you dive more and more and you see accidents happen and you see people get into trouble and you realize it’s actually a pretty dangerous sport, just like riding a bicycle. Actually, if you do a triathlon, right, it’s pretty dangerous if you fall off one of those 30 miles an hour. And so I think for me, I have always been the type of person to put myself into these uncomfortable situations. And I feel like the more uncomfortable situations you put yourself in, the higher your bar goes in terms of the pain threshold, right? That you can, you can take. 

And so, I think it’s important to be putting yourselves into uncomfortable positions and that might be career wise going for that job that isn’t quite, you’re not quite there yet, but putting yourself out there to take it because you know that I you can do most of it, right? But maybe you can’t do all of it, but that’s okay. Um, and then even in your hobbies and your lifestyle and, and, and things that you do, um, think when you live a very comfortable life, any kind of discomfort is, is going to be really painful. And so, I think, Um, I think it’s important. 

And actually, during, um, the pandemic, I didn’t really scuba dive very much. Um, and as soon as I got back into it, I realized how important it was in my life to have that. Because there’s a lot of preparation, and for those of you who are listening, who  do any kind of sport that is on the sort of dangerous side and it, and it could even be cycling right in the mountains. Um, but you know, skydiving or any kind of scuba diving or rock climbing or anything like that, you know, that you have to prepare very, very well beforehand. So having your own equipment, making sure it’s tested, making sure that you’re diving or you’re you’re partnering up with the right person that you know them.

So for me, putting yourself in these situations really just brings out a lot of skills and a lot of areas of your character that maybe you didn’t know existed. And I think that can also drive you in your career. And like I said, you’ll be less likely to think, well, I’m going to take a risk with my career and I don’t know, move across country, move, move internationally, right? With my family. Um, because I know that this opportunity is good for me. Whereas I know there are a lot of people who just won’t do that. That’s just a little scary for them. So I think, you know, always test yourself, always be pushing yourself. 

And it’s not about, once a year, I’m going to, you know, bungee jump. Um, it’s about little things all the time. Right. And, and putting yourself in that discomfort zone. Right. And making sure that you’re always pushing forward. So I, I believe in, and I think you talk about this a lot on your podcast. It’s, it’s professional and it’s personal, but they interact so much together and they create your character as, as you mature.

Marc A. Wolfe: It’s, yeah, thank you for bringing that up. It’s interesting what people take as risk. You’d mentioned your youth, you were going to go and you’re like scuba dive. That looks like fun. Why don’t try it? And then you get exposed to, oh my gosh, this actually is a lot riskier and you could die doing this and never thought of it that way.

We talk about that in the book, that when people say it’s risky. And I’m like, well, what happens if you don’t do it and you’re stuck here? 

So it’s interesting how you integrate that and you make it all part to make sure that you always be working on that.

Naomi Kent: Yeah. And I, and I think risk, if you don’t take a risk, you can, you’re never going to know. Right. And, and don’t get me wrong. I’ve taken risks on all kinds of things, different investments that didn’t work out, um, you know, jobs or careers that you sort of switch and go, okay, this didn’t work out. Let’s move. Maybe you’re in a location and you say, you know what, I like where I’m living, but it’s, it’s not the best. Let me see if I can, you know, find a better place for me and my family. And, uh, So I, you know, there are, there are times when you kind of have to consider these things and you have to make the right decision.

I think the more you put yourself in a position, um, it, it becomes less scary. It just does. Right. 

Marc A. Wolfe: So let’s talk about some of the “yeah, buts” that you brought up.

Marc A. Wolfe: So one of your “yeah, buts” is “Yeah, but…I’m not sure I can do it”. So what particular moment and what was this around that you said, “Yeah, but…I’m not sure I can do it”?

Naomi Kent: Yeah, so you mentioned it briefly before. I work closely with individuals who are starting a board career. So they’re looking for corporate boards, and many of them come to me with this, this phrase, which is, you know, I’m just I’m not ready for it, it’s not for me, I don’t think I can do it. And what I tend to do is just by asking a few simple questions and understanding what they have done so far in order to try and achieve the goal and then to see that actually their strategic plan isn’t quite the right plan, and then figuring out what is the correct plan. Then actually it doesn’t look that scary. And so when a lot of people go into things, initially they go in with perhaps a mindset or a vision of something that might be incorrect. And then once they speak and once they understand what is actually involved, they realize that it’s, it’s actually not that scary at all. 

Naomi Kent: And I’ll give one example. Um, in 2004, I’d been doing triathlons for many years and, Ironman is, is the, the longest triathlon that exists. Yeah. And I, I thought, well, there’s no way I could ever do that. I mean, I consider myself fairly fit and healthy, but that seems like it’s for, you know, the, the, the sort of professionals, right?

That’s something elite athletes. And I was in, uh, I went to a networking event in New York City. I was living in New York at the time and it was a triathlon group or it was something around bicycles or something. And I just ended up in a little group and there was a woman there that said she had done eight Ironman. And I was just blown away. This was a regular person. Okay. This was not, you know, a famous elite athlete who was sponsored by TYR. You know, this, this, this was someone who just had a regular job and loved doing long distance racing. And it sort of just hit me right there. And, and I said to her, I said, well, how is it that you’ve done Ironman? And she said, Oh, anybody can do it. I said, Oh, really? What do you mean? And she said, there’s only one thing you need. And I said, what’s that? She said, time. You just need time because you need time to train and you need time to get your nutrition in check. You need time. Sure. You need dedication and all these other things, but actually the number one thing is time.

So if you have time to do it, you can do it. And at that point, literally next day I started, I signed up for Ironman and I worked on my Ironman training. Um, and then I did two back to back. Um, so I haven’t done eight, so I’m nowhere near what she was back then. I’m sure she’s done more, but she just loved it.

She loved it, loved it anyway. Um, but my whole point is, is once you break something down, you realize it’s actually pretty achievable. Um, and, uh, and, and, and if you, and if you research. And you ask people and you ask for help, you’ll actually realize something that seems really scary might actually not be.

Marc A. Wolfe: Wow. It’s a, I love stories where a random person seriously just literally comes into your life and says one thing and it changes everything, right? Like you knew what Ironman were, you knew what was going on. You knew how difficult they were. You knew what your reason for wanting to do it or not do it.

But it’s one person that says something to you. The next thing you know, you do it twice. So, and that’s what this is about, right? This podcast is about. They might not know you, but all of a sudden they’re like, hold on. She doesn’t look like, and wow, she’s from where? And the more people get to know other people, the more they can see their own story in other people and go, well, if they can do it, why couldn’t I?

I was like, no one said you couldn’t except you. 

Marc A. Wolfe: So, but, so you mentioned about being risk averse, but one of your “yeah, buts” is “Yeah, but it’s not safe”. It’s risky. So, what, what’s that all about?

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Naomi Kent: So, um, so again, when you think through some of the ways that people approach, you know, change and transformation in their lives, frequently, they see it as something that’s a little bit too risky. And for a lot of people, what’s actually holding them back is the fear of failing. And so, they would rather do nothing. And I, I think we’re talking here about all these achievements I’ve had, but I can tell you as many places and things that I’ve failed at, right? That, that happened at the same time, but I would never have achieved the things I did if I hadn’t gone out there and done it. Right?

Um, I’ll give you an example. So many people, the night before an Ironman, don’t do the Ironman the next day. They freak out. They, they, or they get in the water for five minutes and freak out.

And they stop. And they don’t complete the race. Um, you’ll see people getting pulled out of the water by people in kayaks. Or they’ll just be hanging onto a kayak going, I know how to swim 2.4 miles, but I’ve just, done 300 meters and I can’t go any further, right? It’s overwhelming. 

So it’s not that you just go and you train and you do the race. There’s so many points of failure and no one wants to come back from saying to all their friends, Hey, I signed up for an Ironman. And then the day after saying, Oh yeah, I didn’t do it. That’s really bad. And I never wanted to be that person, but that didn’t phase me from doing it. And I think a lot of people feel like they’re going to fail at something and they don’t want to feel that way.

And I get that. And that’s not a good feeling. Um, but the risk involved in that means that you’ll never do it. Right. And, and if we take the example of getting onto a corporate board, some people talk themselves out of it and say, well, I just could never do it. So I’m not going to try because again, They’re afraid of failure, but often the their idea of a board of directors perhaps isn’t the quite the right fit, right? 

Naomi Kent: So for me, it’s the, the, if you, you can reduce the risk right around something that you’re doing, if you, you plan it out well, and actually I have three P’s when I think about any of this stuff.

It’s, um, prepare, position, and pursue. Right? So preparation is all around knowing how do I get ahead? What is it? I need to be doing. You can apply that to an Ironman. You can apply that to a job. You can apply that to anything in life positioning yourself in the right way. So how do I get myself to a position where I’m going to be successful?

Maybe it’s training. Maybe it’s understanding the role of the board of directors and having a great personal pitch and then finally pursuing going after it. . So, you know, it’s all about preparing, positioning and pursuing the right activities.

And if you do it with the right things that feel good for you, and then you slowly increase that, um, the chances of you failing, I think are a lot less.

Marc A. Wolfe: Thank you for making it memorable, right? Because people need things that are memorable. Three Ps, right? Stories. 

It’s interesting how most “yeah, buts” are in people’s heads. Just like someone taking all that time to train for an Ironman and then not doing it, my gosh, that’s, you know, it’s, Great stories. Great stories. 

Naomi Kent: It’s true. It, it, it hurts. It hurts a little bit. Um, I, I think though that, um, when you are planning out anything, if you haven’t done the planning and the preparation properly, then usually that’s what goes wrong. Um, so again, the person and I know a few people who have struggled in the swim in an Ironman, right?

And I’ve had to been pulled out. And most of them, if you ask them, they’ll say, Yeah, I didn’t feel good that morning. I didn’t sleep well. I didn’t, you know, I in my head, all these things were going on. Um, I didn’t feel I had trained properly. And so there’s always something behind it. Uh, I feel like that confidence has to come through, but, um, you know, yeah, sometimes we do have to say we failed, um, that’s okay. 

Marc A. Wolfe: You know, you had another, “yeah, but” when it ties right into your three P’s, it’s what’s the plan. So what advice do you give to somebody struggling that are real planners and they need everything access to a whole plan, but they can’t get it because you can’t plan everything.

Naomi Kent: Yeah, so you’ve got to, you, well, you know, you, you have to have a, a plan for something that does go wrong. I love talking about military training and all of these things and military training is all about scenario planning. Right. And business. We do it as well on boards. It’s done all the time.

Strategic planning is done all the time it’s not a case of, well, should we spend 5 million here or should we spend 5 million there? It’s what is the impact and short term, medium term, long term, and then looking at all the areas that would be impacted, um, and bringing in experts like a legal counsel to understand the legal requirements, a tax expert to understand the tax requirements if you’re going to expand into this country or expand your product line.

And so, um, you know, that the planning piece needs to be not just planning. But actually planning for the for the failure. And what is it that I’m going to do? 

If you’re a company that’s doing something for the first time, or you’ve got one or two competitors, and they’re just not doing something, um, try it out. See if it works. Maybe they failed at it, but maybe you can make it work, right? So there’s plenty of things that you can do. 

Um, and the planning part I think is, is around this sort of scenario planning, which will help you to think through other thing I would say. 

And, um, as a scuba diver, um, you really do need to train a lot. And I feel like the more years that I’ve been diving, the more I have seen, right? So I’ve seen someone panic underwater. I’ve seen someone get caught up in a line. I’ve been caught up in the line and I’ve had to unwrap myself. And then I’ve looked around and my buddy is gone and maybe there’s three feet of visibility and I can’t see where they are. Um, and so what do I do? Do I sit in panic? Do I just remain calm? Cause nothing really is going wrong at this point. If I lose my buddy, it’s not the end of the world, right? I can get myself back to the surface alone. So, but I know that because I’ve done it before. 

Naomi Kent: So the more you put yourself, and this goes back to my original point of the more you put yourself into situations that are uncomfortable, the more you will be okay with the discomfort. Um, you know, a lot of businesses during when COVID first kind of started and, you know, people were being moved about and nobody knew what was going on. 

Same thing with dangerous sports. You have to be ready for every eventuality, and you have to be thinking fast on your feet, too, because sometimes it’s a case of a second by second, especially in diving, right? You could die in three seconds. 

If you have a PR crisis, right, you may need to respond pretty quickly on that. So you need to have a lot of decisions made in a very short space of time. So going back to your point, I think that, um, that plan, uh, needs to be flexible and needs to be able to change, but then you create a new plan, uh, based on what is it, what is happening right now.

Marc A. Wolfe: And, you know, you talk about planning and the military is a great example because a lot of people believe I have a plan, but they don’t test the plan. I mean, my biggest example of that is when people say they have a backup of their information or the data. And I was like, have you ever restored it right to get it? They’re like, well, no, I just know it’s backed up to the cloud. I was like. Well, have you ever taken it? They’re like, no, I was like, okay, you don’t really have a plan. You have what you hope is aspirationally a plan. And that’s what you’re talking about. You can’t plan for COVID. But what you can do is plan for things that are unplanned, which means if we don’t know what to do, how do we react?

What I’m continuing to hear from you is the more you push your tolerance, the more you expose yourself to more things than you possibly could have imagined if you just expose yourself to understanding and adapting a little bit more.

Naomi Kent: Yeah, that, that, that’s absolutely right. And, and everybody’s, uh, everybody’s idea of what something, what is risky is, is totally different. 

Marc A. Wolfe: You’re right. We can’t always look to others for how it will affect our lives because we uniquely process things differently. 

And we just spoke about where if I took 10 people and we put them on the same exact plan, we would get different results. Why? Because of the way they think because of their desire, because of the outcome they want, because of the stage of life they’re in, it’s a beautiful thing to be able to know that you can’t just say, apply this and it’ll work. It’s gotta be internalized, personalized for that unique individual.

Naomi Kent: What I said earlier about having a little bit of a winning feeling every day, you know, you need to feel proud of yourself. And that’s a great thing for your mindset, for your energy, for your confidence, the way you walk, right, the way you dress and how you approach people and speak to people. 

And if you don’t feel like you’re winning, even at the slightest thing. I do a lot of gym training and CrossFit and, you know, we see people coming into the gym who really have never worked out and for them, you know, they go from lifting, I don’t know, 50 on a bar to 100 on a bar in six months. That’s a huge thing for them right now. For most people, that might be easy. That would be their lowest weight. But for that person, that was a win. 

And so, really celebrating your wins on a daily basis, whether it’s like you said, hey, I didn’t drink the can of soda for breakfast. Um, you know, I, I chose to actually eat or drink something else, you know, give yourself a pat on the back.

That should be about winning, not about just sort of feeling down about it because you missed out on something. 

Marc A. Wolfe: Naomi, it’s, it’s been great having a conversation with you. And again, I learned something every time we discuss, I think a lot of people are going to come away with, man, she was really motivating and honest and being able to do this. And I, that’s why every guest that I have on, I never really know how things are going to go because when people really open up and they give of themselves. We’re gonna have your information and everything in the show notes. Any other closing thoughts as we put this, uh this show to rest?

Naomi Kent: I hope I, uh, I won’t be interested to hear if I inspire anybody to go and do Ironman. I’m not, I’m not going back to do it, just so everybody knows. But, um, I would inspire, and you know what, it’s not about Ironman. Ironman is, is, is a huge thing. It takes years, uh, right, to, to kind of get there.

But, but, um, sometimes it can just be, you know, a 5k, one mile, right? Just, just get out, um, if you know that it’s important. Health is important to people and it should be, um, and, and just give yourself a tiny goal, right? And again, you’ll feel like you’re winning if you achieve it, right? Hey, I walked one mile today, or I jogged one mile.

I was able to do it for a whole mile. So, you know, and don’t compare yourself to others. You know,, you have your own scale of what’s the best and what’s the worst. And so work across your own scale. But, uh, but yeah, I hope, uh, I hope I do inspire for anyone that is, please let me know.

Marc A. Wolfe: Well, thanks for being on the show. They’ll be able to contact you and be able to know more and thanks for being and sharing your “yeah, buts”.

Naomi Kent: Thank you for having me as well.

Marc A. Wolfe: Thank you for listening to  The Yeah, But Podcast. If today’s episode provided valuable perspective on how to overcome the excuses that can hold you back, let us know in the comments. Remember, it’s not about the “yeah, but”, it’s about finding ways to live, learn, and lead better every day. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with someone who could use a little kick to get past their “yeah, but”, and don’t forget to follow us on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

And for even more tips, connect with me at marcawolfe.com/podcast or on LinkedIn. Until next time, keep challenging those excuses and keep moving forward.

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